If you hate writing Amazon listings this is the episode for you. Tommy sits down with MerchantWords' executive team - Mark Liu and John Klein - to learn more about the technology behind Power Listing. Learn how to research and create Amazon listings in minutes with the power of AI. Listen now!
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Tommy Beringer: What's going on, everybody? Welcome to the Sell Rank Win podcast from MerchantWords. I'm your host, Tommy Beringer, and today I have two very special people on with us. They are two of the smartest people I've ever met, and I'm very lucky to get to work with them day in and day out. One of them is the CTO of MerchantWords and the other is the president of MerchantWords, not the United States. So, without further ado, it is my pleasure to introduce you to Mark Liu and John Klein. What's going on, guys?
John Klein: Hey, Tommy. How's it going?
Tommy Beringer: It's so fantastic.
Mark Liu: Hi, Tommy.
Tommy Beringer: So, happy that you guys are joining the podcast today. I needed have your special minds on with us because we were talking about how to automate and scale your Amazon listing creation process using AI. And I think you guys are two of the perfect people to come on and chat about this. So,, I mean, let's go ahead and dive in and give the people what they want. What do you think?
John Klein: Let's do it. Let's do it.
Tommy Beringer: So, let's just go ahead and give a brief introduction of who you are, what you guys do here at MerchantWords. John, why don't you go ahead and kick it off first?
John Klein: Yeah. I'm the CTO of MerchantWords. And been in the industry for a long, long time and really enjoy making cool products and solving crazy problems. And listing writing is a pretty fun one. It's one of those things that people really hate to do, but it's a necessity. And so, doing this project has been really fun and it's great to try and tackle this problem.
Tommy Beringer: Very cool. Yeah. You do a lot here at MerchantWords, John, and thank you for everything you do. And we're very happy to have you here on the team working with us. And El Presidente, why don't you tell them who you are and what you do?
Mark Liu: Good enough. So, yeah. I'm the president. I help oversee the business strategy operations development. And so what we were doing over the past few years was actually trying to figure out how we could leverage AI across this mountainous data set that we have accrued over the years. And like John now, I've been doing this for quite some time. Not as long as he has, but I think about 18 years now. And when I started this business of just working on the internet and building products, I actually built a listing content writer, but it was for the automotive industry.
And so what we did is, in a very limited capacity back in 2005 and 2006, we took a bunch of inputs and out of that, we generated automotive listings that would go on all the major websites at the time. And so for me, it's always been a intellectual curiosity. Because we've been hearing about this from customers for a long time, about what a pain point it is and how difficult it was. And knowing that we did this in a far more limited capacity for automobiles over 10 years ago, we've always wanted to come back to this problem. And I would say we have with full force.
Tommy Beringer: Absolutely. And we are alluding to something that we will be talking about very soon. And it's very exciting that we are able to give this to you guys, to everybody out there who has that major pain point with writing a listing. I'm an Amazon seller myself, as you guys know, and I hate writing listings. And this new product is in my arsenal of things that I need to use when I am launching a new product on Amazon, especially for my listing writing process. So, as you guys know how and I've already said, we're going to be discussing how to automate and scale your Amazon listing creation process with the power of AI. But at first I want to dig into, why is it so important to have a fully optimized Amazon listing? And why do you need that those listings supported by a mountain of actual Amazon shopper data? That we have been collecting here since 2012 at MerchantWords, which nobody the out there can say that they do that. Mark, why is it so important to have a perfectly well-optimized written listing?
Mark Liu: Oh, well, you could have the best product in the world but if they can't find it, you can't sell it. So, that's the core thing and I think that's nothing new to anybody. I would say that it's in line with our core thesis as a company, which is, Amazon's a default product search engine. And so if everybody in the world or the majority of the people in the world go there to find products, then by extension you have knowledge of what it is that's popular, what it is that works, and how it is that they find these things. And so we've been lucky to work with John over the years to build up a lot of this intelligence to pursue some of this. And so, maybe Johnny could talk a little bit about the scale in which we operate, but I think that it's important and incumbent upon us to think about, "Well, how does a human make sense of so much information? And then how do you distill it into something that's usable and impactful for your business?"
John Klein: Yeah. And it's one of those things that, over the years, we have really focused on data collection and making sure that the data we collect is the best the algorithms that we've created produced the best results as well in estimates that we can. I mean, they are estimates in the long run, but trying to find edge cases and things like that and really optimizing it's been our goal, and to really produce the best end user data from the data we collect. And so in order to actually get great output, we need amazing and a massive input. And one of the things I say and I find interesting is that we literally create an iceberg of data and our users pretty much use the tip of the tip. Not even the tip of the iceberg, but the tip of the tip.
But we collect so much more data so that that tip is just really high quality and precision. And we've had people come, some of our users, that they compare all the other products on the market and they come to us especially for our custom data and our API, because they've compared our data to others and compared it to what they do and that stuff. And they give us credit and say, "Hey, you guys have the best data in the industry." And that comes from people that are actually using it, which is great to say.
Tommy Beringer: Yeah. And some of those are Fortune 500 companies, which is fantastic. They're coming over from our competitors and they see that we have the best data out there, which is tried and true. And you guys make possible for our users to use it at a smaller scale. And of course, for our larger customers, with the APIs that we have as well. Yeah. So, going back to the listing as well, and thank you for that, John. Yeah. So, basically, the A9 Algorithm for Amazon is trying to find out what your product is. So, the listing optimization process, you're trying to tell their algorithm what your product is and why you're going to be relevant to that buyer's search. In a nutshell, that's why you want to have that title fully optimized, of course, and then the rest of the parts of the listing, for sure. And that's what we do in the product that we're going to speak about in a second.
So, yeah. Thank you for that, guys. So, I, myself obviously hate writing Amazon listings. I speak about it all the time on the podcast. And you have to do all the research, then make sure those keywords are relevant to your product and that they have a good amount of search volume. Then you have to write the listing. And if I hire a VA to do this, there's so much back and forth that I have to do until the listing is just right and making sure that my brand's voice is incorporated in it as well. And this could take days, sometimes even weeks in some cases, to complete just a few listings. So, I wish there was a simpler way. Guys, do you know of any way that I can just type in some keywords in some of my competitors ASINs and get back a listing, a fully optimized listing or close to fully optimized, in a matter of seconds or minutes? Do you guys know of any product out there?
John Klein: We sure do.
Mark Liu: Well, the internet is replete with... Yeah.
John Klein: And it's not one. It's five versions.
Tommy Beringer: Five? Five. There we go.
John Klein: Five versions. Yes.
Tommy Beringer: There we go. There we go. So, what we've been alluding to is our new sister company called Power Listing, where you give us some of your focus keywords and your top competitors ASINs, or just your ASIN and we go ahead and find your competitors for you, and we write you a listing that is about 80, 85% complete. You just have to go in and edit it to your brand's voice and just change the attributes in there, like if it's 12 ounces and not eight ounces. And then all of that is backed up by our mountain of MerchantWords data that we've been collecting since 2012, which is the most important thing. Because there are other AI writers out there, but they're not compared to us at all because we are backing all of these listings by this huge mountain of data.
John Klein: Yeah.
Mark Liu: Yeah. I just wanted to underscore that. We came about this somewhat organically as well. Started really talking about this many, many years ago with people that had the same pain point that you just spoke about, Tommy. Lots of folks hate writing listings. In fact, there's a big industry of people that will just do it for you. You can go to Fiver. You can hire any number of Amazon writing services out there, or agencies to do this for you because it is such a pain point. People are willing to pay good money in order to do that. And in fact, we also created our own listing writing service, right? So, we wanted to understand what it was that people were doing with our data. And so we built this listing writing service and eventually started to thrive.
And it was like, "Oh, okay, there's something here." And so as we went through the steps of, "Okay, well, how do you write an optimized listing? And how do we make sense of all the data that we have to apply to these listings?" we saw a lot of opportunities to streamline the process. And so the end result of Power Listing is really just a marriage of a lot of these things. There's a large data set that we keep talking about. There's this need that gets fulfilled today by humans. And to be clear, we're not at the point where we're replacing human jobs. What we see our core role is, it actually to speed things up, to help you. And that's what we've been doing for our writers over the past few years is just, "Okay, how can we help you write a little bit faster?" And so the end result here is like, "Wow, we actually got something that's pretty good. Let's see if people actually can get some use out of it." And it turns out that that's actually true.
John Klein: Yeah. And it's interesting when you look at how we built this thing, and when you look at the actual writing process. I've watched the writing process for quite some time. My wife runs a company that does digital publishing. And so you have, when you actually convey how you want, if it's a listing or an article or something like that, you give that task to a writer and you have to tell them certain things about it. Because you can't just say, "Hey, go write X." You need to actually give direction on certain things, like maybe tone and voice and what it's about. What are the key points? What are the keywords that you want, especially if you're doing SEO. And so the writer goes off and then with those directions, writes that stuff. And that's probably the most time-consuming portion of it.
And then they come back with that piece of content. And then of course you have to do editorial, check the things, maybe tweak some of the stuff and get it exactly where you want. So, really what we've done is probably that first part, that most time-consuming portion, is we've built that out. And the cool thing is we've built that on a massive amount of MerchantWords data, and the AI is only as good as the data you build it on. And so we've actually looked at some listing competitors and they don't have the Amazon-specific data that we have. And so their listings are like, we're like, "What is this?" Where ours turns out a whole lot better. Yeah. Sometimes we have some funky ones, but most of the time ours are really good. But it gets you that where we're taking that most time-consuming portion and limiting it, so that pretty much all you're doing is just some fine-tuning and editing.
Tommy Beringer: Yeah, absolutely. I mean... Oh, go ahead, Mark. Were you going to say something? No. Yeah. I mean, I love me some Power Listing. Briefly just want to go over the use cases like, who is this for? Mark, who is going to get the most use out of Power Listing?
Mark Liu: Yeah. Well, ideally everybody, but we can't build a business off of that. So, we wanted to start with the core need, right? The core need is, well, you either just don't have enough time or you don't have the skills or the ability to do this, or even the inclination. There's no shame in that. Because running an Amazon business is extremely taxing on your time. So, if we could hit on all these points, then there's a universality to this. And it's not theorizing, right? There's plenty of listing writer tools out there. What we've done is just taken another step forward in the evolution of these things. And so what we think is, well, those people that actually have the highest volume of listings to generate on a month-to-month basis, these are the people that we think we would love to connect with and understand how we can move this forward.
Because your time is just as valuable as everybody else's, because the higher your productivity or the higher your output, the more work you can take on. So, to begin with, yeah, we would love to figure out how this thing can fit into the agencies of the world, right? The big brands of the world. Because these are the people that we talked to the most early on in the beginning days of like, "Oh, man, I just got this big problem. Can you guys just do it for me?" And so, okay, well, how do we do it now using a lot of the best technologies that are available to us in a way that allows you to scale up in a tremendous way? I would say those are the main currents that we've been using as our principles to guide this forward.
Looking for, first of all, solving a major pain point. Second of all, taking the existing way that you do this, which is to say days or hours of keyword research and pulling together all a bunch of stuff, stuffing it into these things that are essentially just glorified web forms, right? That you still have to do some typing and thinking and writing and hopefully your grammar skills are up to par as well. And then hope for the best, right? Because that's just where the state of our industry is. And so we weren't necessarily going to go down that route because, again, like we've been saying, we should be able to take advantage of this giant iceberg and allow everybody to tap into this, and the best way to do that is through AI.
Tommy Beringer: Absolutely. And I think to summarize there, those main use cases are out there, those sellers with those bigger brands with thousands of SKUs. We have one right now writing tons and tons of listings. It's so awesome to see them coming in. And for smaller sellers to medium sellers like myself, very useful. Again, I hate writing listings. And then also those agencies that are writing listings for other people and those freelancers on Fiver that are writing listings for Amazon sellers. They're going to get a lot of use out of this. They're going to be able to scale their business, make more money as well. So, it's a no-brainer, really. Yeah. So, okay. Yeah. We spoke about the AI magic. I don't know if you wanted to dig into that a little more, John. I think we touched on that. Was there anything else you wanted to discuss on that before we dive in and give an over the shoulder look on how to create one of these listings inside of Power Listing?
John Klein: Yeah. No, not really. I mean, the key part of our product is the data that it's built on, because your AI is only as good as the machine learning and the-
Tommy Beringer: Exactly.
John Klein: ... data that trained the model and everything that works on it. So, ours is based on Amazon listing. So, it's all about buying intent and product listings. And Amazon's listings are really good. And so, taking that into consideration with the data that we use and also being able to evaluate listings. So, we know what good listings are versus poorer listings within the realm of Amazon because of where they show up on pages and their different markers and things like that. And our data's only going to get better. The AI is only going to get better as we go down this and more people do listings and things like that. It'll only get better.
Tommy Beringer: That's so true.
John Klein: And we started off with a great base and it's going to only get better.
Tommy Beringer: Yep. I'm so excited to go along this journey. It's fantastic as it is, but like you said, it's going to get even better. Mark, are you ready to share your screen and give an over the shoulder view on just the listing creation process on Power Listing?
Mark Liu: Yeah. Yeah. Let's take a look.
Tommy Beringer: Perfect. So, this is Power Listing here, guys. Go for it, Mark.
Mark Liu: All right. So, the listing generation, like John was saying, it needs you to give it a little bit of information, right? Because you can say, "Okay, well, write a listing about hanging jewelry organizers." Well, okay, we can do it, but really, the more information you feed us, the better it is. So, the first step is actually just to organize yourself. And so we've called this hanging jewelry organizer. You can list it in any number of ways. I like to use dates. Or you can pick through different projects that you've already created. You can use SKUs or what have you. Anyway you want to go back and refer to this later.
That's the intent of this. We also support 10 different marketplaces. So, not only can you get it in English, but if you're a cross-border seller, you can get it in Spanish, Italian, German, French, and English. And so all of these things are also powered by Amazon data from within that actual country itself. And so when you create an Amazon Australia listing, you're using Australia data to power that, right? Same thing for Germany. Same thing for France, right? We're not just taking amazon.com information and shoehorning it in. Our goal is accuracy. So, we want to empower you to be able to pick whatever markets you are working in. And so let's go with the US because that's the 800-pound gorilla. And so we want to go to the step number two. So, this is your brand name. And for those that already know, your brand should come first in your titles, right? So, we give you the opportunity to put that in there. Let's call it Mark's Brand.
And then what type of product is it? So, this is your, and I always get slapped on the hand for saying this, but this is your main keyword, right? What are you selling? This is the number one thing, right? You can have all types of long tail associations to this, but essentially it's a hanging jewelry organizer, right? So, to think about this as, what is the thing that you're selling? And we need you to be specific here, but don't be too verbose about it. All right. Okay. So, in this step, we provide you with the ability to add your ASIN as well. So, as John was saying earlier, the important part is for us to start to grab in as much information as possible. So, it starts with your own ASIN because out of that, we can reach into our product graph and see, "Okay, well, what are all the other ASINs that are associated with this? What are the keywords that are associated with this? What's that next level of consideration?" So, we build this big giant network just based off of one data point itself, which is your ASIN.
And so with that ASIN in mind, we're now going in. You've sent it in and we've gone into our, like I said, our product graph. And we've pulled in a bunch of different products that have overlapping searches with yours. And so this is a direct measure of relevance. It's not just what's close to it, but it's actually how many of these products are showing up most frequently with yours. And so you can look at these as competitors. You can also look at these as just information that you're feeding into the AI and saying, "Look, I'm creating a hanging jewelry organizer, and these are other things that are products that have information that are similar to mine."
And so, you can keep going and searching for different types of things with this initial set that gets returned right here. So, there's a bunch of ASINs here on the screen that you can go and click through and just feed our AI with, right? So, as I'm clicking, you see it's being added to this list over the side. You want to just go through and get, we suggest, up to 10. Because that tends to provide the best results. And so we want to make sure that you give us a good enough base to go with.
John Klein: Yeah. And just some notes on that too. If you're a new seller and you don't have your ASIN yet, or you just got your ASIN and you don't have the listing, you could use a competitor or someone that's out in the market or use keyword terms to start to search and find relevant products. Also, there are some people that are in a market where there aren't a lot of products, too. So, you want to make sure that if you're doing a search and there's a whole bunch of other stuff in that search that isn't related to the product, that happens in new markets and things like that, new keywords, is that you're selecting and giving the best input. Like, "Hey, yeah, here's the two products that are really associated." So, that's the key thing there.
Tommy Beringer: Yeah. Thanks for bringing that up, John. And that happens to some of my products as well. I'm not able to select six, but since they're so relevant, I still get a good listing back. Go ahead, Mark.
Mark Liu: Well, the next step here is just to allow us to be even more specific as we're generating the content. For example, in your bullet points, right? So, these are things that you want us to highlight about it. So, let's just brainstorm two or three of these. And we don't have to spend a lot of time here. But for example, it's over the door, right? So, if this is a product that actually is a jewelry hanger that you can put over the door, maybe that's a space-
Tommy Beringer: Velvet.
Mark Liu: Right. Velvet.
Tommy Beringer: I don't want my jewelry to scratch, Mark. It needs to be velvet.
Mark Liu: So, velvet lining. How about that?
Tommy Beringer: Sure.
Mark Liu: Yep. Space saving. Room for 40 necklaces, right? So, you get the idea here.
Tommy Beringer: Yeah. We're just spitballing here. This isn't anything specific to a product that we know about. This is just us coming in and adding these inside. And of course, your product, you're going to know your product better. So, you can come in here and dial it in much better to let our AI know what to do and how to create your listing.
Mark Liu: There's, sorry, two more steps to go here. This is a list of keywords to exclude, right?
Tommy Beringer: This is my favorite part, I have to say, guys. Because this is now you're telling our AI what keywords you do not want us to put into your listing. And this is great to add brands, your competitor's brands,. If they're not showing up already in those word pills. You can add below down there where it says, add your own. And anything. For example, if there is something that says black here and yours is a blue product, you want to, of course, select black. So, you're refining here in order to make the best listing possible, the most relevant listing possible.
Mark Liu: Yeah. So, just go through here and remove things. And of course, if you have any keywords from your negative ad campaigns, this is essentially negative keywords, right? So, just go ahead and add those here, and we'll be sure to honor all those as well. Because again, we want to make sure that you're getting as much accuracy as you possibly can. Okay. Last step is tone, right? How do you want to portray this thing? So, we have friendly in here, but you can essentially type in other ones. Professional, friendly. Don't get a little too creative. We try to pre-populate this. Here's luxurious, luxury. So, we'll give you some writing prompts for you to use to go through and pick. And then basically what we'll do is, the AI will then try to think about, "Okay, what does it mean to write a listing that has a tone of luxury to it?"
All right. So, once that's done, just want to make sure that all the information here is done to the best of your ability. If you need to go back, you can always go back and edit things. But the purpose here is just to say, "Okay, we're about to submit a bunch of information and we're about to do something that's really computationally heavy, so get ready and let's go." All right. So, we submitted a listing. And what happens now is basically, we've gone and we start to go and run hundreds and hundreds of queries in order to produce a listing. We try to get it down to less than five minutes. Most of the time it's significantly lower than five minutes, but that's typically what we're seeing. It's like, "Okay, well, we're going to have five different options that get generated with all the keywords in less than five minutes."
Tommy Beringer: And just to point out here, this is a different jewelry hanging or hanging jewelry listing that we created earlier. And so, as you can see, the tone and the negative keywords and the features aren't there, but just so you guys can get the idea of what a finished listing looks like.
Mark Liu: Yep. It's like on the cooking shows where they put all the ingredients together, stuff it in the oven and then grab the one that's made. Oh, here. It's all done. All right. So-
Tommy Beringer: Yeah, exactly. I like that analogy.
Mark Liu: So, here we go. We're looking at a completed listing for hanging jewelry organizer. Up top here, we have the current title. So, this is your title. And what we've done is we've highlighted all of the keywords that we are able to find with this particular title. So, these are great. It's not to say that organizer is not a title. What we've done is just highlighted the ones that have the most. And if pocket is something that's important, you can drill in and see, "Okay, well, these are all of the keywords that contain pocket." And by extension, you can potentially rank for these. And in fact, if you look at this, this has six of your competitors are ranking for pocket jewelry. Six of the competitors that we declared here in the similar products are ranking for pocket jewelry organizer on page one. So, we give you the ability to, first of all, make sure that you're showing up in these places based on these things, but also secondarily, you can look for other ways and potentially running ad campaigns or looking for other opportunities that your competitors that you've declared aren't also showing up.
Tommy Beringer: And we give you guys all of these keywords. These are coming straight from MerchantWords, which no one else is doing. So, you guys get all of this data, which is fantastic.
Mark Liu: Yeah. So, I just clicked on the 42 keywords button. So, these are the 42 keywords we've found in the title. And John, I wonder if you might be able to spend a minute talking about what we call the word soup approach to algorithm, to finding what these keywords are and how do we know that these certain things are keywords?
John Klein: Yeah. I mean, keyword phrases, are an important thing, and just going through and analyzing and looking at a title or a description and things like that. What are the keywords that are in there? And there's things that we talk about, like engrams. And an engram is the number of words in a phrase. So, most people call them keywords, but we call them keyword phrases because it's usually a phrase of words. And so you have short tail, long tail. And as we go through and looking at all the different engrams, and we have database queries that go in and actually look against our data to find out, "Hey, what are the relevant keywords based on their volume and their estimated volume to actually bring back the best keyword phrases that you should use in your listing?"
Mark Liu: Yeah. So, essentially, we take a whole bunch of stuff, we mix it together and we find, "Okay, how does Amazon assemble these things? How does Amazon's algorithm think about search terms when it's in a listing?" And so we've essentially tried to re-engineer or reverse engineer that similar kind of algorithm, and use that, apply that, within this simple highlighting feature. I just wanted to give credit to the engineering team for the kind of work that they did in order to try to really understand, "Okay, well, what does a keyword mean within a listing? And then how does Amazon interpret this?" And essentially, that's what we've done here for you.
John Klein: Yeah.
Tommy Beringer: And I want to point out-
Mark Liu: That's-
Tommy Beringer: Oh, go ahead, Mark. Sorry.
Mark Liu: No, no. Go for it.
Tommy Beringer: No, I just wanted to point out that there are five different options there. And if you already said that, Mark, I apologize. And you can see the keywords that are found in each section and you can dig into them, like I think Mark did earlier. And you can hover over there each option, see which one has the most keyword volume, according to each one. That's how I select it. And then also the amount of keywords found, because that's going to count for relevancy, which is important as you should prioritize relevance over search volume. But then of course, you need to get those eyeballs onto your listing. And you can see if you scroll up, Mark, you can see in this that there are 42 keywords found in this title, which is the ASIN that we plugged in. And then our title is spitting out, right below for option five here, 195 keywords found and a much higher search volume. So, you can see that if I was updating my listing here, if I was Bro Trade, BB Bro Trade, I would want to update my listing with one of these five listings.
And you could piece together these listings, too. If you want to take a title from option one and the bullets from option option three, the description from option five, you can go ahead and do that as well. And we also surface some backend terms for you to put in, also. So, we give you guys everything here. I've used this in my products as well, and I've seen a lift in my rankings just from doing an update. And it's, I mean, it's a fantastic product. It's going to streamline your listing creation process. And it's backed by a mountain of actual Amazon buyer shopper searches that we've been collecting here at MerchantWords since 2012, which no one's going to be able to compare to even if they did start trying to get some Amazon data in there. But I don't see anybody else out there who actually does have actual Amazon data in there, especially the way that we put it in. So, just wanted to point that out again.
Mark Liu: Yeah., no, I mean, the backend terms is a huge engineering endeavor. The simple fact that you don't even have to think about this anymore, I tell you, it still kind of blows my mind.
Tommy Beringer: Yeah. Well, guys, we like to keep these podcasts short and sweet, and if you guys want to go ahead and check out Power Listing, we do give everyone a free credit. So, just go to powerlisting.com and sign up. You don't have to enter a credit card. Just create an account and you can try this out for free. It's a hundred dollars value, one credit. So, I suggest you guys go ahead and try it out. Again, powerlisting.com. And sorry, Jeff Bezos, we ran out of time. Couldn't get you on this episode. So, maybe on the next one. We'll try and get you in there, buddy. But guys, till next time, I just want to say thank you again for your time here. And I know your time is very, very valuable.
And we even have to jump on our standup call right now. So, you guys could see how the work happens over here at MerchantWords. We shoot the podcast and we jump right into a standup call. So, guys, thank you again for your time. Just, I can't say that enough. And I enjoy working with you guys hear at MerchantWords and Power Listing, and I'm so lucky to be around you guys, your smart minds. You guys, your smart minds make my mind smarter as well. So, just thanks again, guys.
John Klein: Thanks, Tommy.
Mark Liu: It takes a village, man. Thanks, Tommy.
Tommy Beringer: Absolutely.
John Klein: Yeah.
Tommy Beringer: All right. Talk to you soon.